Comments on: On/Off-Court Plus-Minus, 1997 Style

By: Mike G

Mike G — Thu, 21 Jul 2011 16:10:23 +0000

In the '80s, we sometimes saw the Lakers' point differential with and without Magic in the game. All those years without a reliable backup, and when Cooper was gone, and Magic went down in the '89 Finals, the Lakers were indeed toast.

By: scottgcau

scottgcau — Tue, 19 Jul 2011 02:24:30 +0000

The reason why +/- didn't catch on is that it's just not that useful most of the time. It seeks to represent an individual's contribution but it's far too heavily influenced by the performance of the other 9 players on the court. It may be useful when comparing marquee players who have a large amount on influence on the overall result, but that's about it.

By: JeremyD

JeremyD — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:46:40 +0000

16 - I can second that. I was 21 that season and had been watching the NBA for a decade. You were more likely to see Shawn Kemp pass on a meal than hear +/- used in a game. On the incredibly rare time you would hear/see +/- or hear it mentioned, it would be in 1 of 2 ways... 1) the example Neil posted to be used as part of the story of how dominant Malone is, or how key he was to Utah's success. Nevermind what anyone else on the team is doing, or if anyone else's stats are better/worse. 2) the half +/-. This would be slightly more common, but also hardly used. It would be something along the line of 'Utah can't win this game without Malone. They are outscoring the Bulls by 17 when he is in the game.' Nevermind what they are doing when he is out of the game, or how much he's played, or any other relevant data.

By: Jason J

Jason J — Mon, 11 Jul 2011 19:33:22 +0000

@ #6 & 7 - I was 18 that season, and +/- had no foothold whatsoever. NBC did throw it on screen once in a while or a commentator might note it if someone stuck it under their nose, but for the most part it wasn't part of basketball consciousness.

By: Matt

Matt — Mon, 11 Jul 2011 14:49:39 +0000

http://coweb.cc.gatech.edu/cs1315/2690

I feel like everyone has one of those stupid little bio's they were forced to make for a class.

FWIW, I was also 9 in 1997, though I don't comment as often here. Congrats on making such a name for yourself so young Neil.

By: Neil Paine

Neil Paine — Mon, 11 Jul 2011 14:43:49 +0000

Haha, wow, did not expect my age to come as such a surprise to everybody. :)

I actually envy you guys who got to see all of Jordan's career play out as a teenager and/or adult, since I only had a 3-year window to really appreciate him while he was at (or close to) his best. When he made his 2nd comeback, I would have been in a better position to truly recognize his greatness, but by then he was no longer playing at a G.O.A.T. level.

By: BSK

BSK — Mon, 11 Jul 2011 12:22:48 +0000

I'm older than Neil AND Huevon??? I feel like an old fogey. Neil, don't you work for S-R? How'd you crack that egg so early in life?

By: huevonkiller

huevonkiller — Mon, 11 Jul 2011 04:33:25 +0000

#10 Yeah it is definitely valuable, I use it more for defense though that's all I was saying. I think apbrmetricians already have a good feel for offense in most (certainly not all) cases.

Kobe has great +/- but that's unsurprising, win shares also likes him as well as ten year APM.

Sean I think you bring up a great point, it is nice to have different perspectives from various generations. It is helpful when I get challenged or pushed as well.

By: sean

sean — Mon, 11 Jul 2011 01:20:43 +0000

Wow. A lot of young guys here. Heuvonkiller was 4 when Larry Bird retired and was just fresh out of the womb when Bird was still THAT Larry Bird.

Neil was 6 when Bird retired... and 2 when he was still THAT Larry Bird.

BSK was 8 and 4 under the 2 conditions, respectively.

It's kind of the same boat I'm in with Wilt Chamberlain. I was too young to formulate any valid opinion when he was still playing (I was 30 in 1997). I have to go strictly on data and word of mouth. I think I have more questions about Wilt as a result than I have answers.

I really appreciate the younger guys' input, though. Sometimes the older guys, like me-------and older--------can have stagnant views. Short of being able to SEE all of these players at an age where I actually KNEW what I was looking at, I guess the next best thing is having the guys older than me tell me what thay SAW and the guys younger than me PUSH me to challenge my conclusions with different ways of looking at things. I think I get that here. Awesome.

By: Heretic

Heretic — Sun, 10 Jul 2011 17:54:10 +0000

I think +/- is very valuable stat; after all, the whole point of being a good player is having a positive impact on your team performance, on both sides of the floor. Even if a player has an average ORtg, he can still have a positive impact on his team, if he manages to divert attention from his teammates and thus creating better scoring oportunities for them. Kobe Bryant is a perfect example (although he is very overrated as a defender, where basically every year his team is better without him).

As for Jordan's last game vs. the Jazz, it truly is not so great:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199806140UTA.html