Comments on: Shawn Marion & the “Nash Effect” http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362 NBA & ABA Basketball Statistics & History Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:56:04 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: Sean http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362&cpage=1#comment-23617 Sat, 28 Aug 2010 18:19:16 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362#comment-23617 Just revisiting some of the old Nash posts...I noted that in 2010 (when Shaq was off the Suns and they went back to more of their old style) Nash's assist numbers were right back up where they were before. Nash actually had the highest Assists/36 min rate of his career (12.1). His assist numbers were down a bit in 2009, but not out of his normal range for recent years.

More evidence that it was more Nash helping Marion (or whoever he's playing with) than the other way around. Although I will concede that my eyes tell me Marion helped Nash too. Marion was a nearly perfect 3rd fiddle in the Suns' system.

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By: mrparker http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362&cpage=1#comment-10185 Tue, 19 May 2009 07:04:29 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362#comment-10185 When is somebody going to point out that Marion has been a great power forward his whole career and a subpar small forward...with or without nash. His PER is into the mid 20s as a power forward this season. That is on par with what his PER was in Phoenix last year. The guy just needs to play power forward to be very productive.

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By: Eddy http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362&cpage=1#comment-10066 Thu, 14 May 2009 05:40:57 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362#comment-10066 Yeah, I was just going to bring up the position factor again but Kevin beat me to it. There's no doubt that Marion benefitted from playing alongside Nash. That's no surprise (and you did a great job of detailing the specifics, Neil), but I think another factor that needs to be taken into account is the position change that's been alluded to. Marion playing SF rather than PF has played a role in his decline as a player, also. It's puzzling that coaches are trying to play Marion conventionally, ignoring the fact that Marion thrived unconventionally in D'Antoni's SSoL system.

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By: Neil Paine http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362&cpage=1#comment-10059 Wed, 13 May 2009 19:41:00 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362#comment-10059 That's a great point about position (Eddy brought it up the other day, but I forgot until just now)... Even with all of the various trades and changes in overall performance, one thing has remained constant for Marion: he's much more effective as a PF than a SF. I mean there's consistently a huge split, even going back to the Nash era.

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By: Kevin Pelton http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362&cpage=1#comment-10057 Wed, 13 May 2009 17:34:13 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362#comment-10057 I also did a similar analysis with Nash, and the results on Marion were mixed:
http://www.82games.com/pelton15.htm

I do think Marion ultimately benefited from playing with Nash, though maybe not as much as Amare Stoudemire, but I think the situation the last year-plus has been set up to exaggerate that effect. The other thing mentioned in the previous comments thread was position, and the numbers there are pretty striking. Nash's arrival coincided with Marion playing more power forward, and he's played relatively little of it in Miami in Toronto. Then there's pace too and the missing transition opportunities Marion got in Phoenix.

The big difference between Calderon and Nash, as I see it, is that Calderon primarily sets up his teammates for jumpers while Nash creates more looks in the paint. It's easy to see how that would work better with Marion's game.

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By: Neil Paine http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362&cpage=1#comment-10054 Wed, 13 May 2009 14:54:29 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362#comment-10054 That's a good point about pace -- Marion went from one of the league's fastest teams to the 22nd-fastest in Miami and the 14th-fastest in Toronto, and he obviously thrives the more open-court opportunities there are.

The Calderon comp was basically to say that while Calderon isn't a Nash clone by any means, his passing ability isn't that far removed from Nash -- peak Nash is assisting 50% of his teammates' FGs, Calderon is assisting something like 40%. But Marion still can't take advantage of that; it may have been part of the system in Phoenix as well, but he needs someone at PG playing Nash's style to be at his best. So I think we're kind of saying the same thing... It's not even enough that he's playing alongside one of the best PGs in basketball again in Calderon, on top of that he needs a specific type of elite PG to flourish.

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By: Neil Paine http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362&cpage=1#comment-10053 Wed, 13 May 2009 14:40:39 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362#comment-10053 Yeah, here's that old article from Kevin:

http://www.82games.com/pelton13.htm

The basic gist is that everyone on L.A. averaged more points per possessions used with Bryant on the floor with them than they did without him. He made them more efficient by allowing them to pick their spots and not forcing them to create as much on their own. Somebody like Lamar Odom went from taking upwards of 23% of Miami's shots when on the floor (assisted on only 41% of his FGs) to taking less than 20% in L.A. and being assisted on almost 50% of his made baskets, and it was no coincidence that his eFG% went up 40 points and his offensive rating spiked upward by 5 pts/100 poss.

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By: Jason J http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362&cpage=1#comment-10051 Wed, 13 May 2009 14:22:42 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362#comment-10051 Walter - That's a great point about Kobe. I wish we had a little more data without Phil Jackson and the triangle in the mix though, because that offense is designed to create good scoring opportunities (well all offenses are designed that way I guess - Winter's version of the triangle just happens to have 9 titles tied to it), and it may also have impacted guys like Cook, Smush, and Kwame. You can't even look back at the triangle in Chicago to try to determine if it was effective at making players more accurate shooters because if it was, how much of that credit goes to MJ and Scottie?

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By: Jason J http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362&cpage=1#comment-10050 Wed, 13 May 2009 14:17:32 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362#comment-10050 I don't disagree with this post, because there's no doubt that the Nash / Marion synergy was outstanding, but I do disagree with the Nash / Calderon comparison.

Steve created a fast tempo better than any other player in the league and got Marion plenty of great easy scoring opportunities in transition (either layups or those corner 3s he likes). Nash is also always looking for backdoor lobs and drive and kick passing angles while he probes the defense with his dribble which really played to Marion's strengths as a finisher / shooter but not a creator.

Jose plays an incredibly conservative game and rarely pushes the pace. He does not probe the defense the way Nash does and offers far fewer kick out opportunities. He also doesn't break down the d off the dribble as much and offers fewer offensive rebounding opportunities. I think his high assist / turnover ratio gets him put into discussions with guys like Nash that aren't really indicative of their skill levels or play styles.

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By: Zandungeo http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362&cpage=1#comment-10049 Wed, 13 May 2009 13:55:27 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2362#comment-10049 Excellent post, now this is sports statistics done well, to explain rather than ordain.
I wonder if Marion will try to rejoin the Suns when his contract expires.

Walter, Kevin Pelton at 82games looked at Kobes effect on his team mates in that exact season and found that he did indeed help them significantly.

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