Comments on: Stock vs. Isiah http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441 NBA & ABA Basketball Statistics & History Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:56:04 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: Bencamerondavis http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441&cpage=1#comment-12826 Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:57:27 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441#comment-12826 Chris Paul's favorite player was Isiah Thomas. Chris Paul, Gary Payton, Derek Rose and Billups combo will equal what Isiah was. While Steve Nash and Mark Price and Deron Williams will describe Stockton's game. Isiah can create. Stockton is a textbook guard. he is the guard from "Double Dribble" While Isiah would be more of a guard from NBA Live.

Isiah is more diverse, Isiah is quicker, he is a better defender, a better score, has a bigger personality, has beaten Jordan, Magic and Bird; the list goes on and on... and I haven't even mentioned his All Star MVP, NBA MVP and Finals MVP awards. In Isiah's Prime you could debate that he was better than everyone. You can't say the same for Stocton.

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By: Tom http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441&cpage=1#comment-12825 Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:38:58 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441#comment-12825 Neil better stats? How about ppg, asssist pg, and steals pg? Thomas wins hands down in playoffs and regular season in ppg. He is damn close in assists and steals regular season. And playoffs he is better steals and about an assist less per game. His shooting percentages arent as good but they are hardly allen iverson throw it up and see if it hits material either. And none of the stats take into consideration clutch. This debate is a joke. Stockton was a great player, nice player. But he was no Thomas. Ill take a dominant player for 12-13 seasons and two championships over stocktons career anyday. And by the way he wasnt oft injured late in his career. You seem to struggle to make your case for stockton. Using stats like win shares per 3000 minutes and comparing Horry to Malone. It speaks volumes for your case. This pistons of this era have the only players with winning records of MJs bulls, Birds Celtics and Magics Lakers in the playoffs. And Thomas was by far their best player, leader and clutch performer. Stockton cannot say the same.

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By: Keith http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441&cpage=1#comment-10965 Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:51:00 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441#comment-10965 Neil,well judging by your comments then Wilt had better stats over Russell so I suppose he's better? Heck, you can make an argument about a lot of players are better then Russell then. Is that what your telling me?

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By: Neil Paine http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441&cpage=1#comment-10627 Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:09:48 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441#comment-10627 Nobody here has some kind of "bias" against Isiah (as a Celtics fan, I'm actually appreciative of him keeping the Knicks a non-factor for the better part of a decade). No, the only thing that's "discrediting" Isiah is his own statistical profile. I love how people keep coming here and accusing me of being biased... I've said it before and I'll say it again: you want me to respect you as a player, to give you your props? Then give me the numbers, give me the objective evidence. That's all you have to do. There's no bias against personality, playing style, height, weight, race, creed, or age... Just bring me the production, and you'll get your plaudits. It's as simple as that. When I criticize a player, there's no bias there -- except bias against substandard numbers.

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By: Bradlee http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441&cpage=1#comment-10626 Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:50:01 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441#comment-10626 How sad we went from Stockton vs. Isiah to Terry Porter is > Isiah if future blogs. There is no player more people have bias against than Isiah. It's too bad he has become such a loser since leaving basketball that people try every angle to discredit his playing days.

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By: Smitty http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441&cpage=1#comment-9693 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:31:40 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441#comment-9693 I hate that I joined this debate so late. Everyone makes great points (except for the folks who admit to or show a clear bias). I have gone back and forth with this debate personally, and publicly at sports bars. One point everyone ignored (i think, apologies if i am wrong), is that Zeke won at every level, against the best at each level, many of whom are part of the community we all refer to as the best/greatest of all time. And, at each level Zeke was the team leader, often the go-to-guy late in games, the floor general and emotional spark. Please remember that he played under the General and beat UNC to win an NCAA championship in 1981. Then helped re-build the Detroit Pistons into a championship team.

I know stats are important, but they often lie too, or can be misleading. Zeke's importance as a PG can never be measured with stats only. Many "winners" are victims of the stat game after they retire. Stockton's longevity and efficiency are very important and can't be dismissed. But on the floor, running my team, early in the season or late in the playoffs, I want the proven winner - and that hands down is Isiah Thomas. No disrespect to Stockton, at all. Winners role model and teach others how to win - sometimes at all costs. A great player with great stats may not be able to do this as effectively, despite the numbers.

I like that some of you guys mention race. This matters. Becasue stats can be used to inflate or diminish a player's worth, we see white players getting props on stats when not winning rings (Stockton for example) and black players losing props for not winning a ring despite hellish stats (Dominique). I also like that some of you guys mention "character" issues. This matters less but I do think there is a right way to play. Stockton and Zeke both played PG the right way, I think. But, none of this -character, stats...etc. - matters as much as winning rings. Maybe I'm a throwback.

One last note - Zeke torched or beat several guys on that top ten list to win a ring. This has to matter.

Give me the rings over the numbers any day. Last I checked, we play to win!

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By: Keith http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441&cpage=1#comment-9090 Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:51:30 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441#comment-9090 Isiah won two rings being the main go-to-guy, Stockton played within a system where Deron Williams is putting up the similar numbers. Isiah beat Bird, Magic and Jordan to win his rings, Stockton had Karl Malone who is by far better then any player Isiah played with and he still couldn't win the ring. As for the story of personally knowing two players, who cares, the guy was a winner. Did Isiah have a huge ego, of course he did but he won the rings. Did Jordan have the same problem, yep, of course, he wanted to win. If you need specifics, maybe you should talk to Steve Kerr and Scottie Pippen about Jordan someday.

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By: Adrian http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441&cpage=1#comment-8397 Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:45:54 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441#comment-8397 There are (primarily) four ways to judge two players against each other: # championships, stats, head-to-head matchups, opinion. Rings depends in every sport on a team being the best in the final round a particular year. So we can't really count that as a measure in this case (see Horry arguments, others who would be among the greatest is Kerr, Harper and Horace Grant, is Bill Russell 5,5 times the player Wilt was?).

Stats is somewhat influenced by teammates depending on which stats you choose. Today we have more refined stats that are better at off-setting pace, matchups and teamplay as well as measuring more subtle things like defense. Head-to-head is out of the equation also because teams play against teams even though certain individuals matchup and players have different roles on different team despite being each others matchup. Opinion is what makes sport tick but this is highly biased through media and this is where Stock is at a great disadvantage thanks to being very, very low key, playing in low media market. In those two aspects Zeke enjoys the upper hand and this explains why Zeke is a bit overrated (while still being an all-time great)and Stock is the most underrated player in NBA history.
Let's focus on the most objective way to determine this case: stats, but first a little sidenote on championships.

The guy that says that MJ was better late 80's is so lost. Never has a team in history enjoyed a more dominant 3 year span like Bulls 96-98. (Check up the numbers yourself, point diff, wins - ridicuolus). And besides some of us still remember Ron Harper making a 2 pointer after and Eisleys long 3 being waved of by Bavetta, both calls went against Jazz for a total of 5 points in the 6th gm '98 which was decided by one...
These two possessions is nothing but cold facts that are easily evident if you have slowmo on your old vcr. If you look at all-time teams the '97 jazz rank among the very best offenses ever, yet the were stopped in their tracks by the powerhouse bulls.
When we go back to late 80's we see in '88 the c's came apart, cavs & bulls too young and pretty much noone else in east. Only one 60 win team which indicates parity, which means that to be the best in this year you don't have to be that great.
'89 lakers were 11-0 only to go 0-4 we scott & magic went down, old kareem less depth the before whcih means that 11-0 i west only says bad comp. East had cavs and not much else and they were taken care of by bulls, only one 60 win team in the league this year.
´90 were without doubt the toghest year of the three with por, lal, chi challenging det and jazz & spurs also sporting good teams.
I don't like these argument though since they are based on speculations and not what actually happend.

Therefore we move to the most accurate way to solve this dispute, namely stats.
The thing is when it comes to stats you can choose any possible stat except scoring per game & scoring per minute as well as drawing fouls and it´s a nocontest in favor of Stock. PER, ORTG, TS%, DRTG, WS, DWS, total career, per game or peak season it does not matter. If you don't trust me look for yourself http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomais01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html

True as some have noted above that it is easier to produce efficiently in lesser minutes, but this makes it sound like Stock played significantly fewer minutes. Stock played 4,5 mpg fewer than Zeke and this comes from being a backup to Ricky Green for his first 3 years and Sloan monitoring his minutes a little bit closer his last 6 years. This 4,5 mpg does in now way come close to offsetting the enormous advantage Stock has in the statistical categories.
If this is an argument then you must also count for how much easier it is to put up big per game numbers the fewer years/games you play and Stocks advantage in keeping his production over 1,54 times as many reg sea games as Isiah is huuuge.

If I'm allowed to throw in my two cents of opionion as a closer I would like to inform you that I personally know two persons who played a few years with Zeke in Detroit and they have told all kinds of stories about ridicuolus (in the good way) stuff he did (also quite a few not so nice stories off-court), and to me it is still a no-brainer in this case. Aside of the objective measures mentioned above, Stock is a superior as a leader (you don't have to be in the newspaper to be a leader), screener, defender, hardnosed player(despite his style of play injured in only two seasons of 19!) and not the least playing the right way like larry would say.

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By: TC http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441&cpage=1#comment-7762 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 19:38:08 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441#comment-7762 D54, the problem with judging stats on a per minute basis is that you end up punishing players who play more minutes. But how many minutes you play is a good measure of how valuable you are to your team. There's an implicit assumption with per min. stats that a player's production would increase proportionally with an increase in minutes, but there's no evidence to support that; if there was, bench players with big per min. stats wouldn't be on the bench! Per game stats show what a player really did, while per min. stats are somewhat hypothetical.

As for shooting %, if Stockton had been forced to be his team's primary scorer, as Zeke was, his FG% and 3Point% would probably be much lower; it's easy to hit a higher % when all your attempts are spot up jumpers against single coverage.

Switch Isaiah from 89 with Stock from 97 and the Pistons don't win the title. On the other hand, Malone and Zeke together might have beaten the Bulls

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By: D54 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441&cpage=1#comment-7753 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:27:10 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=441#comment-7753 To me it's no contest. Stockton has always been the most underrated star in NBA history for me.

Stock > Zeke

@TC (Per 36mins) Stock was 15pts - 12asts - 2.5stls at 60.8 TS%, while Isiah was 19pts - 9asts - 1.9stls at 51.6 TS%

PER
Stock: Ave 21.8 Max 23.9
Isiah: Ave 18.1 Max 22.2

"Consistency and longevity determines greatness"

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