Comments on: Re-run: Which Games Are the Most Important In a 7-Game Series? http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420 NBA & ABA Basketball Statistics & History Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:56:04 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: WallyBoy http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420&cpage=1#comment-50030 Fri, 03 Jun 2011 12:08:26 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420#comment-50030 Related to what Roby said earlier, game four does appear to be psychologically and statistically important. Does anyone know if there is any real world data on game 4? That is, since almost any series is over after 3-0 (expect for the NHL for some reason...), then most series are 2-1. What percentage of the time does the 'tying' team (making it 2-2) win the series? What about the team that goes up 3-1? Anyone?

]]>
By: Neil Paine http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420&cpage=1#comment-49251 Wed, 18 May 2011 19:55:06 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420#comment-49251 I don't think it was ever claimed that this was actionable from a team's POV. WPA in baseball isn't especially actionable, either -- they're value metrics, not ability metrics. The distinction is important:

http://gosu02.tripod.com/id11.html

Looking backwards, you can say how important a given situation was in determining the final outcome, just as you can say a 2-run double in the 9th inning of a 1-run game was more important than the same 2-run double in the 5th inning of a 12-3 blowout. I don't really see why this is controversial.

]]>
By: Sebastian http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420&cpage=1#comment-49248 Wed, 18 May 2011 19:47:53 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420#comment-49248 Ok... I don't think there is anyway to discuss this without sounding like an @$$, but here goes...

If player X and his teammates had won games 1-3, then his production in game 4 wouldn't be "worth" 1.3 times as much as game 1. Player X didn't know, while he was half @$$ing it in game 2, what the series scenario would be in game 4. How much weight do you give to production in a losing effort? The analysis might be statistically consistent, but I'll keep measuring production by weight of gold (rings). I understand the modern metrics explosion does yield some actionable intel for players, coaches, general managers, etc. It also gives fans something else to argue about... And it certainly sounds like a dumb cliche to say the most important game is the one right now, but there is a reason cliches become cliches...

Consider another sport - baseball, and how managers decide the starting rotations. Look at the specific example of the 1960 World Series. Run an analysis of weighted production on the players in that series. Now pretend it is the day of game 1 and you are Casey Stengel and have to decide who your starting pitcher should be in game 1. Does the after the fact analysis change anything about what Stengel should have done?

What kind of actionable intel does an analysis like the one above give you. Does it matter who had the best 'weighted production' after the fact? I'd argue that what matters is that a complete idiot would have sense enough to start Whitey Ford in game 1, if the only thing he understood about sports was the cliches.

I don't mean to discount the effort or the other ways in which this type of analysis can be used (looks like a great way to take money from your friends by betting on some combination of the outcome of a given game and the outcome of a series), or the value of different types of metrics in general, but the single most significant thing I see coming out of this approach is adding another way to make excuses for supposed 'big game' players that don't win because they don't understand the concept of teamwork. Lebron's entire career of performances "positively correlates" with being the new Wilt Chamberlain...

Taking future uncertainty out of the equation when considering the relative value of a player's contribution describes an impossible circumstance and makes analysis of a player's production less significant, not more... It tells you more about who the biggest ham is, rather than the best player. Take the average delta for every possible game scenario, on a per game basis, and only consider the games that have to be played (1-4)... now which game is the most important? I'll take the 5 players that have the best weighted production calculated on that basis.

]]>
By: Neil Paine http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420&cpage=1#comment-49225 Wed, 18 May 2011 17:00:06 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420#comment-49225 OK, it's a little like leverage index in baseball... If I can say that Game 4 had 1.3 times as much impact of series win probability as Game 1, then I can weight production in Game 4 1.3 times as heavily as Game 1, etc.

]]>
By: Sebastian http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420&cpage=1#comment-49223 Wed, 18 May 2011 16:55:42 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420#comment-49223 Neil,

I understand the analysis. I don't understand the application (outside of ways that it could be used in certain forms of wagering). What purpose does it serve?

]]>
By: Sean http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420&cpage=1#comment-49206 Wed, 18 May 2011 12:00:25 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420#comment-49206 The one you're playing TODAY.

]]>
By: Neil Paine http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420&cpage=1#comment-49028 Fri, 13 May 2011 17:30:34 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420#comment-49028 To clarify: this entire exercise is inherently being done retroactively for past games, but you can also judge how important the current game is relative to those past games.

]]>
By: Neil Paine http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420&cpage=1#comment-49027 Fri, 13 May 2011 17:09:39 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420#comment-49027 I don't think you understand what I did here, Sebastian. I'm just looking at the impact in series win probability of a given outcome in each "game state" (W-L for each team and game location). All calculations are being done from the perspective of an observer before the game.

]]>
By: Sebastian http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420&cpage=1#comment-49025 Fri, 13 May 2011 16:22:40 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420#comment-49025 You have to win three games before the clincher, to win the series. None of those are less important than the clincher. If you show up at game four down 0-3, it probably won't make much difference if you manage to win game 4. The most important game is always the current game. That starts with game 1. You can only retro-actively analyze these things from a perspective outside the contest - that is the logical flaw in the analysis above, and the mistake most people make when debating this.

]]>
By: Roby http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420&cpage=1#comment-49009 Fri, 13 May 2011 04:54:08 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9420#comment-49009 Game 4 is the most important game. Open an shut.

If you are trailing 2-1, you better not lose, because it all but impossible to come back from down 3-1. You are done.

If you are ahead 2-1, you really want to win game 4 to go ahead 3-1, because it almost guarantees that you win the series. Moreover, you will likely win without having to play 7 games.

Game 4 has the potential to set you up for the coup de grace. I guess the reason the numbers don't quite reflect the importance of game 4 is because sometimes it isn't a kill shot, it is just a reset button. Tied 2-2, its back to a near 50/50 proposition.

But ask any player, which game they would most like to win, (besides the clincher) they would always choose game 4.

Game 4 is the most important because it is guaranteed to mean life and death (figuratively) for one of the teams.

]]>