35 Responses to “BBR Mailbag: Most One-Dimensional Players”

1. Walter Says:
   December 7th, 2010 at 11:55 am

   Looking at #2 on that first list makes me think that the MVP trophy should be renamed to Most Valuable Offensive Player because obviously defense doesn't matter in the voters mind. Of course defense wins championships and their is a reason he doesn't have any of those.

2. huevonkiller Says:
   December 7th, 2010 at 12:01 pm

   #1 I'd say even using just advanced offensive metrics (let's say PER), Steve Nash still didn't deserve it. That was a LeBron/Kobe year.

3. Walter Says:
   December 7th, 2010 at 12:06 pm

   Another interesting look is at individual years. I quickly looked at data since the 2000-01 season (last 10 years basically) for players with WS>7 and DWS<1.

   Only 15 times has a player had a season in which they recorded at least 7 win shares while defense contributed 1 or fewer of them. The 15 occurances were done by 11 players. 9 players did it once, 1 player did it twice (Antawn Jamison), and the two time MVP Steve Nash did it 4 times (twice with Dallas and twice with Phoenix).

4. kkopi27 Says:
   December 7th, 2010 at 12:26 pm

   Wow, lots of guards/swingmen on the offense list and many bigs on the defense one. Not that surprising overall I guess.
   All the more stunning that Walt Bellamy is so high on the list, especially since he did rebound quite a lot.

5. Jerry Says:
   December 7th, 2010 at 12:53 pm

   where's Ben Wallace?

6. AYC Says:
   December 7th, 2010 at 12:53 pm

   Surprised a former assist leader like Rodgers gets zero credit for offense...

7. Neil Paine Says:
   December 7th, 2010 at 1:08 pm

   "Only" 75% of Wallace's WS came from his defense:

   http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wallabe01.html#advanced

8. Johnny Twisto Says:
   December 7th, 2010 at 1:30 pm

   Antoine Walker, that well-known shut-down defender who rarely involved himself in the offense.

9. Frank N Says:
   December 7th, 2010 at 2:11 pm

   "Surprised a former assist leader like Rodgers gets zero credit for offense"

   Kind of what I thought. Rodgers, a one dimensional defensive player? maybe when he was not aveeraging double digit assits pergame or double digit FGAs, 15-20 in the middle of his career.

   I guess in the same style as Antoine Walker who threw up more than 20 shots a game, averaging almost that many FGAs per game for 6 years in the beginning of his career.

10. Imadogg Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Thanks for this Neil. The name that surprised me right away was Chris Kaman, almost all defensive?

    Most of the names (offensive especially) are to be expected. Guys like Nash, Redd, Kevin Martin, etc etc you know are gonna show up on that all-offense list.

    And oh yea if you're wondering, 133.6 out of Bill Russell's win shares came from defense, which is just under 82%.

11. kampfy Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 4:09 pm

    I though for sure I would have seen Jeff Malone on the offense.

12. Neil Paine Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 4:22 pm

    #8 - Yeah, this is measuring percentage of value (at least according to WS) devoted to each side of the ball. To measure percentage of involvement... Well, that's another thing entirely, and one which I'd have to think about a lot more before I came up with a metric.

    For instance, Dean Oliver's stats do a really good job of measuring offensive possessions used, but defensively they just assume all 5 players each face 20% of opposing possessions, which totally fails us in an exercise like this.

13. Chronz Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 4:24 pm

    First person I thought of was Kiki

    Dont be surprised Doggy, its not so much because Kaman is a great defender but because hes horribly overrated offensively. The guy has never met league average in efficiency regardless of his role, and since becoming an All-Star the chucking hasnt stopped.

14. AYC Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 4:37 pm

    I assume all of Wallace's offensive value is due to offensive rebounding....

15. Anon x 2 Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    How about a list of the most balanced players? 50% split or as close to it?

16. Johnny Twisto Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 5:11 pm

    I get it Neil, just found it amusing that Walker is rated that way. I do understand why his offensive rating is so low (even negative some years). I'm not sure that's accurate, since on certain teams there's probably value to being the guy who makes baskets, even if it takes too many shots to do so. Of course, smarter people than I have spent a lot more time than I working out all these systems, so I won't argue too strenuously since I have nothing new to bring to the table.

17. kevin Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    I don't think it's fair to call Rodman, Wallace and Mutombo offensively inept. Shooting ability is only part of an offensive game. The guys who are bad offensively are the ones who consistently make poor decisions and are bad at executing patterns. One guy who comes to mind is Tony Allen, who is a terrific defender but is an absolute disaster when he has the ball. That he actually played point guard for a portion of his career is an anomoly of historic proportions. It is the equivalent of putting your dog behind the wheel of your car and expecting him to get you to work safely.

18. Jason J Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    Kevin I'm confused by your comment. Does your dog have a job that requires a morning commute? Mine just barks at squirrels which he can do from the couch under the window.

19. Darla Dillon Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 6:08 pm

    Comment deleted for spam

20. Greyberger Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 6:13 pm

    And that right there is the first female commenter in BBR.com history. Hey-O!

21. Neil Paine Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 6:19 pm

    (To preserve Greyberger's one-liner, I merely blanked the spam comment instead of deleting it completely.)

22. Jerry Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 7:08 pm

    I'd guess Usage/DRtg would produce more believable results. You know, no Chris Kaman, more Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace

23. Imadogg Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    @15

    I was thinking about that as well. The incredible Timmy Duncan is at almost exactly 50% (81.6OWS:82.9DWS)

24. Dave Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 7:30 pm

    I note that Eaton was Bad offensively early in his career, and became less bad - story of a journeyman centre in the Bad Boys era?

    An interesting list, is all player seasons with OWS4 in the modern era gives this (short) list http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=yKDxC

    I think the 1985/86 Utah Jazz must have been an intereting team with two big men who hurt the team on offence ...
    Perhaps a better measure of Defensive leanings would be the difference between DWS and OWS.

25. Charles Warring Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 7:56 pm

    No Nash should have won the 2 MVP's, he turned around an entire franchise one year and the next he took Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Kurt Thomas, Shawn Marion, James Jones,Kurt Thomas and Eddie House to the WCF. So shut up all Nash haters.... plus, who would of wanted to play wiht KObe those years..... the glares, the yelling.. thats an MVP.... no problem if Lebron won it.... but I think MVP is more than assists... especially in today's NBA, point guards are going to be very effective offensively but defensively they look bad..... we want to look at all these stats... how bout one.... wins...

    and defense wins championships... how about not having your best players constantly injured and/or suspended.... but I guess Kobe would have won game 7 with an injured Gasol last year shooting 6-24...and no Kobe hating here... he is a great a player

26. Charles Warring Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 7:57 pm

    assists= stats, in last point... as pointed out.. most guards were on the offense list and most big men on the defense list

27. Gabe Says:
    December 7th, 2010 at 10:11 pm

    How is it that Jamaal Tinsley has career 0.0 OWS, and 16.5 DWS?

    He of the career 38.3 AST%, 8.3 AST/36, and 20.7 USG%. He got some steals, but not really a player known for his defense.

28. DJ Says:
    December 8th, 2010 at 12:33 am

    Why is it that there are plenty of defensive players with no offensive value (100%DWS), but no offensive players with no defensive value (100%OWS)?

    Is that an artifact of the Win Shares system (and the possibility of a negative OWS)?

    Or is it that teams are willing to carry a defender who can't shoot, but not a shooter who can't defend (at least a teeny bit)?

29. Anon x 2 Says:
    December 8th, 2010 at 1:21 am

    @ 27

    DJ, partially perhaps, but I think also cuz defense is divided among the teammates.

    As a fun fact, I looked up Adam Morrison and he has -3.00 OWS and +1.6 DWS.

30. Zeiram Says:
    December 8th, 2010 at 6:41 am

    I think #28 also explains #28 question, because defense is extrapolated from the team performance even bad defenders won´t quite have a negative or miniscule DWS.

31. Neil Paine Says:
    December 8th, 2010 at 7:30 am

    Right, it's far easier to be sub-replacement level on offense than defense, because DRtg values (based heavily on team D) are so much more compressed than ORtg values (based on individual production). Only 66 players have ever had negative DWS in a season:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=AWDUF

    Compare that to the huge list of players with negative OWS:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=iIII8

    Btw, for those looking for a list of 50/50 players, here you go (sorted by proximity to a perfect 50/50 split):

    Player	Games	MP	OWS	DWS	WS	%Offense	%Defense
    Xavier McDaniel	870	25201	24	24	48	50%	50%
    Terry Cummings	1183	33898	46	45	91	50%	50%
    Chris Mills	568	17282	19	19	38	50%	50%
    Bingo Smith	865	22407	17	17	33	50%	50%
    Popeye Jones	535	12579	11	11	22	50%	50%
    Bryon Russell	841	19805	24	24	47	50%	50%
    Nick Anderson	800	24922	27	28	55	50%	50%
    Clarence Weatherspoon	915	27735	29	29	58	50%	50%
    Michael Cage	1140	29716	37	37	74	50%	50%
    Ben Poquette	718	15763	15	15	30	50%	50%
    Robert Parish	1611	45704	74	73	147	50%	50%
    Rudy Gay	340	12115	9	9	17	50%	50%
    Larry Drew	714	18370	12	12	24	50%	50%
    Tim Duncan	997	36165	82	83	164	50%	50%
    Danny Schayes	1138	21975	24	25	49	50%	50%
    Keyon Dooling	615	11950	7	7	15	50%	50%
    Latrell Sprewell	913	35270	28	28	56	50%	50%
    Johnny Moore	520	13430	15	15	30	50%	50%

32. Willie Says:
    December 8th, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    Excellent and Post Neil, and thoughtful to preserve GB's one-liner.

    I was however slightly disappointed because based on the title of the post I was imagining something looking at players more literally "one-dimensional" IE good at one thing only (the most obvious example to me is Manute Bol). Many of the players on these lists aren't one dimensional at all (Eaton could rebound and block, Nash can shoot and pass etc...) I know very little about statistics but I imagine you could come up with this list by using metrics that rank a characters strength in a particular category relative to some sort of mean of all players and then look for the players with the largest differential between their relative greatness in one category and the rest of their abilities.

33. AYC Says:
    December 8th, 2010 at 1:19 pm

    The X-man!

    ...surprised to see Chauncey and Joe Dumars on the negative DWS list

34. Mike G Says:
    December 10th, 2010 at 6:30 am

    Reggie Miller = best 1-dimensional player ever

35. Rip Wiley Says:
    December 10th, 2010 at 7:40 am

    Apples and oranges, I know, but I was really expecting to see Bruce Bowen on the 'Defense' list, after all those good Spurs years when he would come at or near the bottom of Hollinger's defense-blind PER rankings. I wonder is Bowen's kind of defensive impact still hard to quantify in Win Shares, or did his corner 3s give him more balance than might sometimes be assumed?